But you presented this idea of setting the example of showing
0:04
how to live that life because.. He said, "I don't want to just give our
0:09
kids a better life I want to show them how you live a life that's meaningful."
0:15
Welcome to the What Could Go Right? podcast. I am Erik Orton. I'm Emily Orton. And here
0:20
we talk about personal growth, family connection, and parenting adult kids.
0:24 Double Return Parenting
And today I want to share a concept that Emily and I.. I love this. And I think we do, too,
0:29
both of us. But it's the idea of what we call Double Return Parenting. And I think the best
0:35 Music Example
way to describe it is maybe with an example. I studied music and so when we lived in New York
0:41
City I would do a lot of writing and composing. And to have peace and quiet we had moved the
0:48
piano into our bedroom. we lived in a two-bedroom apartment and so to just have a workspace where I
0:54
could think and listen and not be distracted by noisy rambunctious kids. Because because we had
0:59
five of those. Because we had five kids. And so the piano was in our bedroom tucked under
1:05
or you know at various stages it was next to the bed. Then it was under the bed when we
1:09
built a loft. Anyway, the point being that at a certain stage, I decided to move the piano
1:18
from the bedroom to the living room. Because I worked with headphones and so I could work
1:22
silently in my room and I would just create something and my kids never knew about it.
1:29
And so when we moved the piano out to the living room I still worked with headphones and I still
1:34
needed some quiet but they could see what I was doing. And in the end, I could share it with them
1:39
and they saw what went into, in this case, writing a song or a piece of music or a show, and they...
1:51
It sparked something for them. And and I don't want to be telling the whole story
1:56
and so feel free to jump in where you want but I feel like the kids started to, first of all,
2:01
they started to tinker on the piano. Is that safe to say? Oh, yeah, for sure. They were like, "This
2:06
is what we do at our house. We play music. And we write songs." Yeah, this, this is just what we do.
2:12
And eventually, so they started to play piano and teach themselves. And after a while, I started to
2:18
teach myself guitar and started to do more writing and composing on the guitar. And they also picked
2:24
up the guitar and the ukulele. The ukulele was a little bit easier for their small hands. But
2:29
I would write something and then I would share it with them. And they would tell me what they
2:34
thought and then eventually we would start writing songs together. Or they would write something and
2:40
share it with us. And then we would tell them what we thought. Yeah, I think it grew. I mean, first,
2:45
we would write together and then eventually they've become very skilled and accomplished
2:50
and talented songwriters in their own right. The three oldest all write and have recorded songs.
2:57
And I guess, bringing this back to Double Return Parenting, is that as a parent I get the the
3:05
joy and the satisfaction of doing something that lights me up that gives me energy. And as my kids
3:12
see me doing that they get to do the things that light them up and energize them. And in this case,
3:19 It’s Not About Doing Exactly What You Do
they all started to write songs. But it doesn't it's not always going to be a one-for-one. It's
3:25
not going to be they get interested in the same thing. Like, 'Oh, I love baseball so they love
3:29
baseball.' Or, 'Oh, I love cross stitching so they become cross stitchers.' You know or whatever it
3:33
is. There was a time when I used to cross-stitch. I don't know if you knew this about me. Hey,
3:37
I'm discovering new things every day. Keeping it, keeping it fresh. It doesn't light me up so I
3:41
don't do it anymore. But anyway, it doesn't always have to be a one-for-one. But I think the idea
3:46
that as an adult, as a father, and as a husband, doing the things in my life that bring me joy
3:53
gives my kids permission to do the same thing in their own life. And then that can feed back and
3:58 Discipline and Frustration in Satisfaction
forth. I want to say two things about this. One is that the things that bring you Joy
4:04
don't only solely bring joy. They often also bring a lot of frustration. So I
4:09
don't want anybody listening to think or talking about like, "If it doesn't bring
4:12
joy then you need to cut it out of your life" because those things that are really satisfying
4:17
they take effort to create to grow into, you know. There's a discipline that's required in it. And a
4:24
lot of people don't like that word. But you were.. your kids saw you at the piano day after day after
4:31
day. They saw you rewriting. They saw you saying, 'This isn't working.' they saw you lose files, you
4:37
know whatever. Not that you were someone who would lose files but maybe something would happen with
4:42
the computer. And anyway they saw the frustrating parts about the creative process. And the thing
4:49
that brought you joy– they saw that there was effort and sometimes struggle required but that
4:57
in the end the joy was worth it. Like it was a Triumph. And so
5:03
I just want to bring that part out. We're not saying, "Oh, if it's not...if you're not
5:07
feeling happy today then stop doing that thing." Well, I appreciate you mentioning that because I
5:13 Multiple Attempts
think they did see. They saw that a song... because oftentimes they would just see, 'Oh,
5:17
here's the final product' When I would come out of our bedroom/office and say like, "Here's the
5:20
final product." They never saw the iterations, the drafts. And this way they saw, 'Oh. Like,
5:26
Dad has rewritten that chorus five, seven, nine times.' Or they would see,
5:33
you know, they would see how one verse would slowly change and evolve as it as it got played
5:39
and sung more and more. And so they learned about how things can happen gradually. And that it's not
5:45
just like go in do the work and come out. And so, yeah, I think they they saw that there's
5:50
a process to it. And I think they it also it was vulnerable for me because I would go and I would
5:58
share some... I would create something or share something when it was only half-baked. 80 percent.
6:05 80% Rule
80 of the time? No, no, no, no I mean that we kind of have a rule of once I've got this song to
6:11
80 it's ready for public consumption. And at home we might see it when it was only 50% ready or 40%
6:17
ready. But our kids knew –I'm not gonna wait until this is a hundred percent ready before I share it
6:23
with a friend or share it you know publicly. I know that if it's 80% there it's solid enough
6:31
to put out in the world, you know. And sometimes they'd just be like, "Hey, here's a chorus that
6:35
I like." Yeah, and they would be and they would realize, 'Okay, that's that has created a fragment
6:39
and it's going to be a part of something else.' And and again for most people, most people are not
6:44
songwriters. Most people are not composers. And so I don't think that in some ways this might be a
6:48
tough metaphor. But I think just the idea of like doing the things that that we care about, like you
6:55
say, it doesn't always bring joy. It can still be a... there can still be a kind of a grind to it or
7:00
at least a like a a grit to it. But also doing those things and also really just making sure
7:08
that kids see that there's there's a struggle in a process. And also that it's okay to it's okay to
7:18
not have something great to show for it. That, you know, seeing along the way the kind of the –I want
7:26
to say the ugly duckling version of it but that's not it. It's just like the like the awkward...
7:32 It’s Good for Kids to See You Fail
It's good for your kids to see how you, to see you fail. I see you trying. Yeah. And failing and
7:38
overcoming and persisting. And and, also, this was this was not the intention of this but I realized
7:46
that we would then spark each other with songs. That's true. And so it was it was very much,
7:54
it became... I remember reading in a book about Lennon and McCartney and the Beatles and how
7:58
they... it was almost, it was slightly competitive between them. And I don't think it ever really
8:02
got competitive between members of our family but as we would create, it would Inspire us to
8:11
go create more. Like because it just gave more and more permission. And it gave more and more
8:16 Choose Your Crowd
fuel to that process. Absolutely. This is getting into another concept that we like to call The
8:22
Current. If there's something you want to be doing in your life, you need to get around people who
8:27
are doing that thing. And then you will just naturally do it more and more. It's kind of the
8:31
idea when maybe your parents when you were young were like, 'Oh, don't hang out with that crowd,
8:35
you know. They're a bad crowd." There are so many crowds. And you should get into the crowd that's
8:40
going where you want to go because then it'll just be so much easier than than staying in the crowd
8:45
you're in and trying to go somewhere else. Just kind of leveraging that current and moving forward
8:52
with it. But the other thing I had wanted to bring up is with Double Return Parenting is –I remember
8:59
when we were really young parents, or parents of really young kids, and Erik was presenting this
9:06
parenting philosophy to me. And I wasn't really on board with it at first. I thought of the idea
9:14
of we've brought this child into the world and now we're gonna sacrifice everything we can to raise
9:19
them up. Like they'll walk on our backs or stand on our shoulders or like whatever it might be.
9:24
Like now our noble duty is to sacrifice everything for them so that they can rise above us, you know.
9:31
And I don't mean to say it in a way that sounds condescending but I had kind of a martyr complex
9:36
about it. So I'm making a little bit fun of myself. There's so many great families that come
9:43
from a very sacrificial narrative like especially the classic immigrant story. Like my parents
9:49
gave up everything to bring us to this country so that we could have a better opportunity. And they
9:55
you know had this life that wasn't full of the things that brought them joy, maybe. Unless
10:00
the thing that brought them joy was that they wanted to do that for their kids. But Erik said,
10:06
"Instead of being the martyr-sacrifice parent, I want to be (because there will always be
10:12
sacrifice in relationship as you try to achieve Harmony)...Of setting the example. Of showing
10:19
how to live that life." Because it he said, "I don't want to just give our kids a better life.
10:23
I want to show them how you live a life that's meaningful. That's full of pursuing things that
10:31
you're curious about, that you're interested in, that you think are worth the effort, the struggle
10:36 Example of Persistence
overcoming obstacles for." And I remember, one day Erik was sitting at the desk working on
10:43
a musical trying to get it produced. It's not just writing the choruses and the phrases. It's like,
10:49
'Now, we gotta find a production team, and the creative staff, and the actors, and the theater,
10:54
and the investors, and the whole thing.' And you were sitting at the desk doing that and
11:01
and you said, "Agh! You know, this didn't work. This.. it didn't work out this time. It's not
11:06
going to be in this theater with these producers." Or whatever it might be and you were feeling
11:10
pretty dejected and I said, 'You are such a great example for our kids.' And you said, 'I don't I
11:17
don't know what I'm an example of.' You know what I said, "You're an example of the persistence
11:21
required to pursue a dream." So whether that's a physical goal you have, or a business you want to
11:27
build, or a book you want to write, or whatever it might be, a relationship you want to heal,
11:34
you or showing them, year after year, the effort that is required. And so, at first, I wasn't into
11:42
it because I had seen a different model and I had kind of admired a different model. But I said,
11:47
'Let's give it a try.' And it really came home to me when we started homeschooling our own kids.
11:54 Environment is ⅓ of Education + Writing Example
And I realized environment is a third of the education. And the example we're setting is
11:58
going to be so huge. So I wanted them to learn how to write but I didn't want them
12:03
to hate it. I didn't want to just start out with grammar and punctuation and all that stuff like,
12:10
'Once you learn the rules then you're allowed to write.' We wanted to start focusing on what's your
12:14
voice? Do you have anything interesting to say? Do you have anything important to say? And so where I
12:20
decided to begin with them was I started writing articles for magazines. I started submitting,
12:28
you know, articles. And just like with the music, they saw that it wasn't just something I sat down
12:35
one afternoon and 45 minutes later I had this published worthy article. They saw me digging in,
12:40
researching, editing, going from longer versions to shorter versions, rephrasing word choice,
12:45
change all the verbs, rereading, rereading, rereading to them. And they started to see,
12:51
"Oh. It's okay if I don't get it right on the first time. It's okay if it doesn't seem easy.
12:56
It's okay. It's actually normal. This is the normal process of writing. It doesn't just
13:01
typically flow out of your brain in a clear easy engaging way." And so they felt
13:09 Permission to Try and Not Succeed
like they understood that it was okay to do lots and lots of attempts and feel good about every
13:16
attempt along the way before they found the one that they felt like this is what I want
13:20
to share with the world. So that it gave them permission to try and not succeed. Yeah. Knowing
13:26
that they could have multiple. many, many tries. I think it gave them the truth that the faster
13:33
you fail the faster you get to that place of success. And so they became less fearful of
13:39
failure. And you can imagine the applications that has across your whole life. Whether it's like
13:46
applying to different schools, or trying out for this program, or applying for jobs, or pursuing
13:52
any kind of interest, or relationship. And saying, 'Oh, that didn't work the first time. Let me try
13:57
again. I'll ask that girl out again another time.' I think for me it boils down to this –when it's
14:04
going back to Double Return Parenting as we, as moms and dads, as parents,
14:10
have the courage to step out and do the things that really light us up and energize us (even
14:15
if it's a hobby, if it's a career, great. Whatever it is) as we do, that we are showing our kids how
14:22
to do it in their own lives. Because I believe that every parent wants the best for their kids.
14:27
They have big dreams. They believe in their kids. And they want to see them do fun beautiful things
14:32
that make them happy. Guess what the best way –or I guess I'll say the way that we've become most
14:39
familiar with and experienced the most success– is by modeling that. Not by just wishing it for them
14:45
but by saying I'm gonna try and do that myself first so that my kids get to see what that process
14:51
looks like. And they they learn that it's not a smooth straight line upward to the right. They
14:56
learn that it's it's a jagged ride. They learn and whatever it is [insert goal] you know the
15:02
pro whatever we're doing as parents we're showing them and modeling the process and that's going to
15:07
serve our kids well. And the Double Return part is one, we get the joy of going on that
15:12
journey ourselves. And two, we get the the second return of watching our kids go on it themselves.
15:18 If We Don’t
Because if we don't, if we just model to them what we call sort of a Conveyor Belt Default
15:23
Life. Guess what our kids are gonna? Guess what model they're following? They're going to create
15:28
a default conveyor adult life for themselves. And we will be sad that they missed out on living up
15:34
to their full potential. And so the best thing we can do for them is to live up to our full
15:38
potential. Show them how it's done. And then let them follow in the way that makes sense to them.
15:43
And that's brought us a lot of happiness for us and our kids. And the good news is when they
15:48
do that the return just keeps increasing with every generation. Third Return. Fourth return.
15:53 Quadruple Return
Yeah. So we could call it like Quadruple Return just credit grandparenting. The legacy ripples
15:58
out. Awesome. What could go right? Thanks so much for listening. Hey, there. It's Erik.
16:03 theawesomefactory.nyc/discovery
If you haven't already you should really go sign up for one of our free Discovery calls.
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